Hi, one of our newer members James Reading has been buying parts from Nick and then selling them on e bay at highly inflated prices. This is causing problems with other member as supply of some of these parts is now very short. He is also doing the same with a loco recently purchased.
Nick has now told him we will not be supplying him with any further parts.
He has two limited edition locos being painted with Warren now, he has paid in full, so I will supply them but that's it.
Maurice
James now seems to understand how the club works and has contacted me again two offers.
As the nature of this discussion has changed I have started a fresh discussion in the Technical Section.
https://membership284.wixsite.com/ools-com/forum/technical/james-reading-offers
Chris if you thought I was misunderstanding that James had offered to make stuff; not me. Not under that illusion but I concur with Norman that he obviously has skills the Club could use.
I agree with Mike too that we need to prevent people making "a quick buck" out of us but I dont think charging for membership would make a difference. We can still sell to "Members Only" and a condition of membership is that the products are not sold on.
Chris it is good that you have had some long conversations with James and I wonder if it is worth anyone else having a word too (Maurice? Eric/Richard on the technical side) and coming with a proposal how we proceed.
The particular thorn here I suggest is the David Palmer involvement. His input need to be protected so maybe he should take the lead in what we do.
Oh dear, I thought that this might happen eventually I just hope that this is the first time that someone has chosen to exploit the good nature of our club.
When I originally introduced the idea of membership fees together with the discount on sales being tied to the length of membership it was to try and control, to some extent, the chance of this happening. To reduce the 'quick buck' syndrome.
Whatever this individual does from now on doesn't change the fact that he was willing to exploit other peoples endeavours for his own benefit without regard for the effects of his actions. A person that we would have to watch carefully in the future.
Maybe we need to place a statement on the front of our website that states that the profit from sales is what allows us to run the club without fees, to design and produce the spares and to run the Roadshow as a club layout around the country.
What is it they used to say,,,,,Every cloud has a silver lining!!
There seems to be a misunderstanding here as so far there have been no discussions with James suggesting that he make and supply things for the club.
The point I was trying to get across is that he has both ability and possibly more importantly contacts that he would be willing to share with us if we asked. He does a lot of quite varied 3D printing, is considering acquiring cnc tools and has ambitions on starting up a model related business that may include some live steam, both OO and 5” gauge (he has several of those and plans for a track on a section of his land.
Although not interested in producing them for us he is sending Nick a sample of his live drive upgrade (and links to the part sources) for free for us to look at as an option for us to source and build for the shop. For other items that we need to source he is amenable to helping us. One thing he has already done is send a motor to his contact in China to get a quote for having some made but has come up against the same problem that we do – numbers. To get them done at a reasonable price he would have to order a 1000 and he is well aware that he could not sell anywhere near enough to get a return on the investment required.
To help the club he is supplying a very comprehensive guide on stripping, cleaning and reassembling an A4 loco and is building a large combined LS/digital layout with the LS crossing the digital using auto sensing to stop the digital trains whilst the LS crosses and then restart them. Interesting stuff that we can all learn from.
As Norman said he has produced some really good content on the Facebook site that will transfer well to the ools website Knowledge Base and now he has agreed not to profiteer he may well become a valuable member of the club.
If James wants to and has genuine skills that can help the club and that includes actually manufacturing stuff (like Maurice, Nick, Eric and I have done selling locos, making Live Drives, Tools and DVDs) then he should be invited to do so but not at a price point that significantly rewards him unless it is something that he has developed entirely himself. Even then, the Club should be the primary source of supply if it wants to be and the deal should be approved by the committee.
If James won't agree to that then he should be ejected from the Club and actions taken (cease and desist perhaps) to curtail his activities.
I guess you could say he is but I suspect it will be difficult to definitely prove. The problem is that the reference to reverse engineering is only an assumption made by me and I don't have any evidence nor do I recall him saying that he reverse engineered it. He still has the unit bought from us and that has not been sold on.
If you look at his designs on eBay he is offering eight different variant including large hand set (closet to our design) small handset, wireless handset or both and anything with wireless in it is obviously a development on the original so it obvious the he has plenty of electronic knowhow and also the ability to source components.
The main thing is that he has now clearly identified on his web sales entry that these units are not associated with the club.
He is also supplying a sample and some details to Nick for us to assess if we want to source parts and provide a wireless variant via the shop.
As Norman says James has posted some interesting and useful stuff on the Facebook site and is sending me a usb stick with all the strip down photos on so I can produce a document for the Knowledge base.
Although I think the concerns raised are valid they need to be tempered with the fact that most of these transgressions occurred prior to him having a clear understanding of what the club is about and once made aware he immediately apologised and agreed (via the WiX messaging system) that he will no longer attempt to profit from our products.
On other possible advantage is that the nature of his business means he has many contacts that may well become useful as we continue to try to source more parts.
As I said in an earlier post he appears to be entrepreneur by nature but never intended to tread on our toes and given that he now understands what the club is trying to achieve along with his knowhow and willingness to share information he could well become a real asset to the club.
Two things to follow up on are the need to update the constitution and as Jimmy suggested add a rider to the shop page about use. I will start new discussion on the two matters.
So it appears he is in breach of copyright already!!!!
Chris, this chap is in the facebook group and has posted some interesting and useful photos, videos and how-to's for group members.
Based on what I have seen of him, he could be an asset to the club. I would agree with you that he remains a member but is on "probation" with the sales ban caveat you mention.
lit is extremely simple to monitor an eBay seller to make sure he sticks by his word.
I think it raises some issues about things like Live Drive. To understand how something works, you do have to reverse engineer it. If you then go on and add bluetooth or something else, I would class it as an improvement.
Suppose this was another member, who was doing it for the benefit of the club. What then?
It is right that people don't profit from our design but locking things down too tightly may be counter productive.
I re-arranged the order of things in my live drive, to suit being left handed. Does that count?
So I would support you Chris, as you have spoken to him.
I cannot agree to continue supplying products to this "member". He has admitted that he always wants to turn a profit on anything he buys. We should cancel his membership and cease selling any spare to him.
In addition his use of our live drive is a breach of our trade secrets and copyright in the live drive and in addition he is depriving the club of revenue from our future sales. We need to send him a cease and desist letter advising him that selling products based on our design of the Live Drive is prohibited, as the design is a copyright item!
We need to add a note on the site that items sold by the club are based on the condition that they are for the exclusive use by members and cannot be resold to third parties!
I also think that Dave Palmer put a note in the live drive instructions that they may not be reproduced by others but I’m not sure entirely.
Chris and Maurice. This has obviously been a tricky one.
I still remain uncomfortable about anyone profiteeing from the Club and making no obvious contribution to the Club in return. An admission that he reverse engineered our Live Drive still worries me.
So does the declaration that he didn't sell on the FS he bought at an advantageous price, just "the box it came in" to enhance the price of another model he sold.
I honestly don't know what to suggest we do but given that you Chris have had long conversations with him then I accept your judgement.
We might want to clarify our constitution. If spares and loco customers have to be members to buy then we do have the right to specify that 'copying' and selling-on is prohibited.
I have just had a long (3 hrs) chat with James on the phone to finally resolve this matter.
It appears to me that James is a genuine enthusiast who has an eye for making money. He is an entrepreneur by nature and never intended to trad on our toes. He has bought a Live Drive from the club and reverse engineered it and produced his own versions, some working the same way as ours and some with a remote control modification.
He has bought many live steam locos and parts and is building a collection of one of each for use and one of each in pristine condition. Anything that doesn't match his spec is sold on or dismantled and sold on.
He now understand the 'looking after members' ethos of the club and has agreed not to sell on any club OOLS products or any locos bought via the club Engine Shed. In addition any items such as the live drives he sell will be clearly marked up as not being OOLS Club OOLS Club products.
He is also willing to share his knowledge ands also possible parts supplier links with the club.
Following his apology and guarantees to not profit from club products unless there is any objection Nick/Maurice will resume supplies of OOLS Club products and loco sales.
Original Hornby spares will not be supplied to James and a separate discussion will be started re what we should do with the existing diminishing supplies.
James has replied twice
Hey Chris yes i can agree not to profit from the clubs parts from here on in and completely understand the points, i have a habit of turning pretty much everything i touch and trying to make a business out of it, long story but I've been like it since my early teens. I won't lie I have sold a few bits, not locos though. The Scot I sold on eBay isn't the one from the club, granted the box its in was but the loco from the club is happily sat with me here. Its lovely condition and a nice upgrade to my collection.
And immediately after
Again I can only apologise, really wasn't my intention to annoy anyone
Some further updates on this issue.
Nick informed James that we would be withholding further supply.
Hi James, I’m afraid I’m going to have to refund your last order on the advice of the OOLS committee. It has been pointed out to me that you are selling club sourced items including the items you have just ordered on eBay for grossly inflated amounts and we just cant allow this as our stock is very low on these and many other items and we have to keep a contingency stock for club servicing. Many club members have also aired their opinions on your dealings and are not happy. You may find the parts you need from other outlets but I don’t know how your luck will fair..! Rgds Nick
James immediately replied and apologised
Hey nick apologises i didn't intent to annoy anyone. Generally sold enough to fund my own repairs, just presumed as long as you guys got paid it wouldn't matter what happened after that. Alot of what i have for sale is used parts, and fair bit of the new stuff was left overs from peters, 2k tech and some from ac. Presume the ools own stuffs still avaliable for me and the engine shed? As this wouldn't make a difference to any club members. 😕
I then replied to James
James I think it is important that you are given an insight into some of the reasons behind the formation of the club and why the committee have concerns about your eBay sales.
The club was originally set up (see the club Constitution) to help club members who run live steam loco and one of the aims is to source and stock spare parts to guarantee the continued running of locos and from a finance viewpoint the Club is run on a non-profit making basis.
As Nick says we have reached a point in time where the supply of original Hornby spare parts has nearly dried up and we are currently not in a position to source alternatives for all the shortages.
The club run The Engine Shed as a service for members and the locomotives & rolling stock offered for sale are sourced and checked (requiring time and effort) by the club to ensure that members may buy items, safe in the knowledge that they are in an 'as described' condition and are sold at a fair price (based on current eBay prices). Again to see them appear on eBay at far dearer prices makes a mockery of the effort individuals have put in to support our members.
Although accepting your explanation that a lot of what you have for sale is used parts, and fair bit of the new stuff was left over from Peters, 2k tech and some from AC we believe some of the items you have on eBay have been sourced from the club stock.
If as a club member if you will guarantee that you will only use the OOLS Club Products to maintain your own locos the committee can make a decision on continued supply.
I hope the above helps you understand that the motivations behind the club are not really driven by a need to maximise profit and I am sure you will understand why both the committee and a number of the membership are concerned about what appears to be profiteering. The OOLS Club has spent years developing a good reputation with our membership and one of our concerns is to ensure that it does not become tarnished by the activities on any of the members.
I hope we can bring this matter to a satisfactory conclusion.
Chris Oakes
OO Live Steam Club Secretary
Totally Agree