Hi Everybody,
Well I’ve had an excellent week, I was invited by Frank Martin, former MD of Hornby to visit some of Jeremy Hosking’s collection of locos at the old Hornby premises.
For those that don’t know, Jeremy Hosking is a wealthy man who owns around 35 full size locomotives. They range from A4 Bittern, A2 Blue Peter, King Edward 1, Nunney Castle, A 9F, Royal Scot, 2 Deltics and a Eurostar and it goes on . . . .
I also had the opportunity to talk to Frank about Hornby live steam, I asked him if he saw it as a failure, he said not at all, they made and sold in excess of 10,000. He could not remember the exact number; he did not disagree with me that it could have been 12,000 to 14,000. For him some of the measures of success are:
Did more than 5,000 of the first model sell? Yes.
Did subsequent models sell more than 2,000? Yes.
The market at the time in the UK was about 50,000 modelers. To sell 10,000, 20% of the market is success.
I then asked him why stop then?
Sales had slowed, but most significantly the manufacturer Sanda Kan had ceased trading. When they looked elsewhere for alternative production, prices offered were two and three times more expensive. Their view was the market was not there at that price and so that was the end, I also recall Simon Kohler telling me this some time ago.
Frank also said that Live Steam gave them a significant boost in the city.
I mention all of the above because we seem to have at times a negative view of the reasons live steam ceased. I’m not sure where this has come from, but it’s time we had a more positive view. After all, we are trying grow the club and to quote Adrian “get these locomotives into joyful use.” After all if someone did re start production the minimum retail price would be £1,000 per unit, making the existing stock look extremely good value.
So, I would like to propose the following:
When asked why did it stop, we have the answer, the contract manufacturer in China ceased trading and replacement suppliers wanted two/three times the price making it uncompetitive, yes the market had slowed, yes we had 2008 financial crisis, but the main issue was price.
I’ve quoted Adrian once, which is a great quote and one I fully support. There is another which I think we need to stop using and that is “Hornby got it wrong” Adrian is referring to the inaccuracies in the handbook. He’s right of course, but we don’t need to say it, in fact I don’t think we should refer to the Hornby handbook, we should just show people how to operate correctly and if asked about the handbook, comment that there were some mistakes but let me show you how and leave it at that.
Your comments and further suggestions appreciated.
Maurice
Adrian,
You know that I think you are at your best on the front of the layout showing everyone how to drive these locos. However when you come to the issue of the handbook, you make quite a thing of it, you maybe right that it was, but today it is irrelevant other than if you are about to buy one of these locos or have just purchased one. We therefore should not make it an issue, it seems to be currently part of the script.
When you look at locos I have sold, currently 46, not one has gone to a previous unsatisfied original owner. Sets have gone to people new to live steam, individual locos to existing owners increasing their collection.
As far as getting them back into production, I think that’s wishful thinking. We should focus on what we have and to quote you, get the existing locos into “Joyful use”
Let’s continue the conversation this weekend.
Maurice
I was there at York, as was Maurice, Nat SouthWood was impressed at the time and we got funding but that was way back in 2015 and he and his management team are now history, as is the £3000. Hornby have moved on and so have we I hope. I tell folk the instruction booklet was a little ambiguous at best, but now we have it sorted and that’s it! No need really to bang on about it in my mind. We have fantastic video on our home page that you made for us highlighting the great effect on youngsters. I feel we should lean towards that effect a little more!!
Maurice and Nick. I dont think either of you were around when immediately after a show a few years ago a Hornby director declared that he had listened to me explaining OOLS and his kids had had a go and he was impressed and enlightened. In his own words "We let a halo product go". That's when we got our £3000 contribution.
Sadly his subsequent news that Hornby would resume production never happened as he and most of the rest of the board were sacked.
Nick I think you are worrying unnecessarily. Our whole presentation (by all of us) is a positive and proud one. I personally praise Hornby for bringing it to market in the first place, for the launch which had a spectacular effect and the after sales service which has been far beyond expectation.
But there's no getting away from the fact that sales dropped, owners did not get satisfaction and dealers got disenchanted (understatement). We know it is an unfair reputation and we do a good job repairing it.
I happen to believe that the biggest single issue was the instruction book errors not least because they never issued errata information. Despite having so much stock held for such a long time they had plenty of opportunity to replace the books.
I do take your point about being negative and I will put more emphasis on the positive aspects of the product history but I do what I do in hope of another white knight appearing anonymously and it is imperative that he/she goes away with a "missed opportunity" message rather than "great idea in theory but never stood a chance of success".
A salient quetion now is what do you think would have happened if Hornby had recommended starting on a rolling road and actually got the "Setting the locomtive in motion" paragraph correct?
I genuinely believe that my success with the locos when first starting and subsequent enthusiasm was BECAUSE I never got an instruction book.
But I will try and push the positive.
Love all this marketing banter! What is perhaps not realised is that certain Hornby connectives have loitered around our stand at some shows and have not been happy at some of what they have heard from the front of show. Negativity of any sort is deffo a killer and I know which approach I prefer.
Adrian,
The point I’m trying to make is to be positive about live steam at all times, we can often be negative when the question is asked “why did they stop?”
There is nothing to be gained by speculating about the demise of live steam, other than to be a positive as possible, I think the reason I have suggested is just that.
Your point about the handbook is valid, but it should only be raised when that person is going to buy, why create a negative before that point. Also there is the right and wrong way to explain the errors of the handbook and it’s not “Hornby got it wrong” a better answer is there are some errors in the handbook, go to our website and look at “Getting started” or alternatively let me show you how to drive these locomotives.
The club is currently in very good shape financially, why? Because of the shop and loco sales, that’s why we always need a positive spin.
Maurice
I absolutely disagree that we should avoid drawing attention to the errors in the handbook.
Correct operating instructions is central to a new owner enjoying their purchase.
It is central to our presentation at the Roadshow too and rather than hide it under the carpet we should reinforce it with an openly available printed errata sheet and draw website visitors' attention to it strongly on our web home page.
If we enthuse someone into buying a second hand set by demonstrating it but leave them to the mercies of the handbook when they eventually get one they will likely "use it once" like the original owner and give up.
We can do all this, positively praising Hornby for developing the brand, the product they produced, the fantastic launch and their technical support even up to the present day. It is a pity that the product wasn't developed (we ourselves have produced an easy, cheap and dramatic improvement in Livedrive) but understandable in the circumstances. My contention and only criticism beyond the instruction book errors is that they did not notice and identify the reason(s) why most purchasers did not enjoy their purchase.
Frank Martin acknowledges the fall in sales but the debatable point is what caused this? How much was due to misleading instructions leading to owner dissatisfaction (and reputaion that followed) and how much to other market reasons.
I accept completely that resumed production was impossible due to higher cost but the reasons for the falling sales are important to any possible new entrant into the OOLS market.
The subject of another debate.
That’s an excellent resumé of the true reason production ceased. What a great opportunity to meet the man at the helm when live steam was in ‘full steam’ and get the truth of the matter! I agree, we should cease the ‘instruction book lament’ immediately (Adrian) and crack on with a more positive message. Let’s leave ‘slating’ Hornby to those outside our club. I for one wish for them to prosper and move on to new innovations. They may even like us a bit more if we have a positive message to give.